1 00:01:45,210 --> 00:01:58,420 you 2 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:01,280 welcome to another in the series of 3 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:03,810 guest lectures on NASA's program and 4 00:02:09,889 --> 00:02:07,650 project management today we will be 5 00:02:12,170 --> 00:02:09,899 discussing management issues as they 6 00:02:16,370 --> 00:02:12,180 have appeared in the manned spaceflight 7 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:16,380 programs our participants are Aaron 8 00:02:23,030 --> 00:02:19,050 Cohen director of NASA's lyndon b 9 00:02:26,690 --> 00:02:23,040 johnson space center Henry Pohl JSC's 10 00:02:29,270 --> 00:02:26,700 director of engineering I'm Joe Loftus 11 00:02:32,390 --> 00:02:29,280 assistant director for plans at the 12 00:02:34,820 --> 00:02:32,400 Johnson Space Center I'd like to begin 13 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:34,830 our discussion by asking each of our 14 00:02:40,460 --> 00:02:37,050 participants to briefly talk about 15 00:02:42,199 --> 00:02:40,470 themselves Aaron would you briefly 16 00:02:44,690 --> 00:02:42,209 summarize your career since you 17 00:02:46,460 --> 00:02:44,700 graduated from Texas A&M and tell us a 18 00:02:49,430 --> 00:02:46,470 little about what you did before you 19 00:02:53,870 --> 00:02:49,440 became a manager ok I after getting out 20 00:02:59,360 --> 00:02:53,880 of Texas am I went to I went to the army 21 00:03:02,180 --> 00:02:59,370 from 1952 to 1954 and then from 54 to 58 22 00:03:05,539 --> 00:03:02,190 I was with RCA Radio Corporation of 23 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:05,549 America and then from 58 to 62 I was 24 00:03:10,070 --> 00:03:07,650 with the General Dynamics Corporation 25 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:10,080 and then in 62 I came to the Johnson 26 00:03:15,140 --> 00:03:12,540 Space Center at various jobs in Johnson 27 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:15,150 Space Center primarily in the guidance 28 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:17,370 navigation area and managing that 29 00:03:22,370 --> 00:03:20,850 activity with the Draper labs and MIT 30 00:03:25,430 --> 00:03:22,380 instrumentation lab at that time and 31 00:03:32,930 --> 00:03:25,440 then deputy of the systems integration 32 00:03:34,940 --> 00:03:32,940 office in the period of 1968 272 I was a 33 00:03:40,670 --> 00:03:34,950 command service module project manager 34 00:03:44,030 --> 00:03:40,680 and then from us 72 to 80 to it was the 35 00:03:45,979 --> 00:03:44,040 orbiter project manager 8286 I was the 36 00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:45,989 director of research and engineering and 37 00:03:51,979 --> 00:03:48,720 from 86 to the current time director the 38 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:51,989 Johnson Space Center Thank You Henry 39 00:03:57,380 --> 00:03:53,250 would you tell us a little bit about 40 00:04:00,820 --> 00:03:57,390 yourself well I graduated from Texas A&M 41 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:00,830 two hours crafting spent two years 42 00:04:06,130 --> 00:04:03,770 service I started out as a test engineer 43 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:06,140 on the red stone in Huntsville Alabama I 44 00:04:13,420 --> 00:04:10,810 worked on the Jupiter on the Saturn I 45 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:13,430 got in some design work designed the 46 00:04:17,590 --> 00:04:14,930 small rocket motors that were put in 47 00:04:19,780 --> 00:04:17,600 wind tunnels at the Tullahoma I came 48 00:04:23,050 --> 00:04:19,790 down here over subsystem manager on the 49 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:23,060 RCS for Apollo our section head from 50 00:04:35,740 --> 00:04:28,090 about 64 65 aqui remember when to about 51 00:04:41,110 --> 00:04:35,750 67 brace G from 67 279 division chief 52 00:04:44,590 --> 00:04:41,120 from 79 to 86 in the propulsion power 53 00:04:50,590 --> 00:04:44,600 division and in 86 I became director of 54 00:04:53,380 --> 00:04:50,600 engineering very good Aaron would you 55 00:04:56,350 --> 00:04:53,390 briefly summarize what you think are the 56 00:04:59,290 --> 00:04:56,360 key things that a manager must do to 57 00:05:03,970 --> 00:04:59,300 achieve success well I rethink that one 58 00:05:05,230 --> 00:05:03,980 of the key things is have some in your 59 00:05:07,090 --> 00:05:05,240 career have some early hands-on 60 00:05:10,330 --> 00:05:07,100 experience but I think you have to start 61 00:05:12,820 --> 00:05:10,340 out with saying that the key elements 62 00:05:14,350 --> 00:05:12,830 are the exact elements of managing being 63 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:14,360 good manager of the programs of 64 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:16,490 yesterday or yesteryear may not be 65 00:05:20,740 --> 00:05:18,530 exactly the same key elements of today 66 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:20,750 so I think you have to take you have to 67 00:05:23,830 --> 00:05:22,130 understand that and they have to start 68 00:05:25,060 --> 00:05:23,840 with that point the new program managers 69 00:05:27,220 --> 00:05:25,070 project managers gonna have different 70 00:05:30,610 --> 00:05:27,230 pressures in the olden on the other hand 71 00:05:33,430 --> 00:05:30,620 I do think there's some factors that are 72 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:33,440 common one is start off I think some 73 00:05:38,770 --> 00:05:35,410 early hands-on experience is important 74 00:05:40,659 --> 00:05:38,780 whatever small project they may be to 75 00:05:43,620 --> 00:05:40,669 carry a project through to see how 76 00:05:46,780 --> 00:05:43,630 drawings are made to see how design a 77 00:05:48,580 --> 00:05:46,790 design that comes about to see how parts 78 00:05:52,390 --> 00:05:48,590 or machine how the process parts in the 79 00:05:54,070 --> 00:05:52,400 factory how you do the testing I think 80 00:05:55,990 --> 00:05:54,080 that's all very important if a person 81 00:05:58,540 --> 00:05:56,000 can do that I think you set a good 82 00:06:02,680 --> 00:05:58,550 foundation for a project manager of 83 00:06:04,780 --> 00:06:02,690 course that is 11 item I think that's 84 00:06:07,030 --> 00:06:04,790 important the other item I think is key 85 00:06:10,650 --> 00:06:07,040 is very important is you need to be 86 00:06:13,930 --> 00:06:10,660 patient you need to you need to 87 00:06:15,730 --> 00:06:13,940 understand people and be people oriented 88 00:06:18,550 --> 00:06:15,740 you need to be able to communicate with 89 00:06:21,970 --> 00:06:18,560 people communicate with people both in 90 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:21,980 the in all directions down words upwards 91 00:06:26,110 --> 00:06:23,450 and laterally you need to be able to 92 00:06:28,450 --> 00:06:26,120 communicate the people oriented and make 93 00:06:30,970 --> 00:06:28,460 people feel you want to hear what they 94 00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:30,980 have to say I think you have to be able 95 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:33,470 to take criticism you've got to be able 96 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:35,630 to take criticism and not become 97 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:39,970 defensive and and do that type of thing 98 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:43,850 and I think you need to know have to 99 00:06:49,540 --> 00:06:46,370 know when to compromise you need to know 100 00:06:51,310 --> 00:06:49,550 when to to compromise and get a solution 101 00:06:52,780 --> 00:06:51,320 rather than argue for a point that you 102 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:52,790 feel that's wrong so those I think are 103 00:07:01,630 --> 00:06:56,690 some of the the key elements that make 104 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:01,640 up i think the the attributes and if 105 00:07:05,380 --> 00:07:03,410 programs for yesteryear and programs of 106 00:07:06,940 --> 00:07:05,390 tomorrow or similar key elements i think 107 00:07:12,730 --> 00:07:06,950 in a person in becoming a program 108 00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:12,740 manager project what are the major 109 00:07:16,330 --> 00:07:14,510 changes that you've seen in the 110 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:16,340 management of NASA projects over the 111 00:07:21,159 --> 00:07:19,370 years well I think you know the two big 112 00:07:23,650 --> 00:07:21,169 programs that I managed was the proud 113 00:07:25,810 --> 00:07:23,660 the command service module for the 114 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:25,820 Apollo program and Henry might want to 115 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:26,930 add a little bit on this and then the 116 00:07:32,980 --> 00:07:30,410 the the arbiter the one in the 60s and 117 00:07:36,970 --> 00:07:32,990 one in the 70s and I think if you had to 118 00:07:39,150 --> 00:07:36,980 say the the differences are are the are 119 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:39,160 the pressures you may have the both the 120 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:41,890 little bit from the external pressures 121 00:07:48,370 --> 00:07:45,530 if you go back to the Apollo era I think 122 00:07:51,490 --> 00:07:48,380 the if you look at the Apollo program I 123 00:07:55,450 --> 00:07:51,500 think you say they the key thing you had 124 00:07:57,880 --> 00:07:55,460 to do was to look at performance I think 125 00:08:00,070 --> 00:07:57,890 performance was primary schedule was 126 00:08:01,180 --> 00:08:00,080 second and then cost and I think those 127 00:08:03,780 --> 00:08:01,190 are the three elements of course a 128 00:08:05,830 --> 00:08:03,790 program management or performance 129 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:05,840 schedule and cost and those are the 130 00:08:10,810 --> 00:08:07,370 three trade-offs that a program manager 131 00:08:13,180 --> 00:08:10,820 has to continually do I think in the 132 00:08:15,070 --> 00:08:13,190 shuttle era you still had performance 133 00:08:17,730 --> 00:08:15,080 was still very key is still I would say 134 00:08:20,350 --> 00:08:17,740 number one but i think cost was 135 00:08:23,409 --> 00:08:20,360 overriding schedule I think cost was 136 00:08:25,910 --> 00:08:23,419 more important than scheduled in the 137 00:08:29,150 --> 00:08:25,920 space station era I'm not sure I 138 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:29,160 I can tell yet I think certainly all 139 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:31,170 three are still very important and i'm 140 00:08:35,210 --> 00:08:33,690 not sure i'm not sure that all the 141 00:08:37,010 --> 00:08:35,220 pressures that the space station people 142 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:37,020 are going to have yet come to bear i 143 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:39,330 think costs I think cost may even 144 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:41,610 override with schedule being second and 145 00:08:44,210 --> 00:08:42,810 maybe performance going oh Henry you 146 00:08:46,250 --> 00:08:44,220 might want to add something to it I 147 00:08:48,830 --> 00:08:46,260 agree with that I think one of the 148 00:08:51,290 --> 00:08:48,840 things that we've got into now is the 149 00:08:54,380 --> 00:08:51,300 lack of flexibility in cost you know 150 00:08:56,570 --> 00:08:54,390 Apollo we never had enough money in 151 00:08:58,880 --> 00:08:56,580 Apollo but we did have a lot more 152 00:09:01,100 --> 00:08:58,890 flexibility and how we can use it than 153 00:09:03,230 --> 00:09:01,110 we have oh yeah an Apollo I would say 154 00:09:05,510 --> 00:09:03,240 that if you had a problem in Apollo you 155 00:09:07,820 --> 00:09:05,520 and you got a problem you could go 156 00:09:09,710 --> 00:09:07,830 mostly paths to get the solution and 157 00:09:11,420 --> 00:09:09,720 then pick the solution you want to but 158 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:11,430 you could carry multipass for a while in 159 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:13,170 the shuttle program and the arm pro I 160 00:09:17,270 --> 00:09:15,210 think what you had to do in that case 161 00:09:18,740 --> 00:09:17,280 was to pick pick the solute not go 162 00:09:21,980 --> 00:09:18,750 parallel paths pick the solution you 163 00:09:24,470 --> 00:09:21,990 wanted and you know with good judgment 164 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:24,480 in good decision-making I hope that 165 00:09:27,380 --> 00:09:26,010 decision was right but not go parallel 166 00:09:29,420 --> 00:09:27,390 paths for that long and I think that's 167 00:09:30,950 --> 00:09:29,430 one of the differences in the shuttle 168 00:09:33,020 --> 00:09:30,960 program you couldn't even continue a 169 00:09:34,490 --> 00:09:33,030 program you had to start it and then you 170 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:34,500 had to stop it because you had to take 171 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:36,210 those funds and transfer us on the glass 172 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:38,970 house and pick up that's right and get 173 00:09:43,460 --> 00:09:41,370 that one up up to the even keel and then 174 00:09:45,860 --> 00:09:43,470 go back and pick up the other project 175 00:09:49,820 --> 00:09:45,870 and bring it along to keep everything 176 00:09:52,670 --> 00:09:49,830 going on even keel and I think the the 177 00:09:54,110 --> 00:09:52,680 program of the of the space station air 178 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:54,120 there's going to be a lot of pressures 179 00:09:56,690 --> 00:09:55,110 and I think you can keep those 180 00:09:59,840 --> 00:09:56,700 fundamentals I talked about in front of 181 00:10:03,740 --> 00:09:59,850 you I think you can overcome those the 182 00:10:05,330 --> 00:10:03,750 new pressures that might come about one 183 00:10:07,540 --> 00:10:05,340 of the things that has been talked about 184 00:10:11,210 --> 00:10:07,550 a great deal recently is organizational 185 00:10:13,910 --> 00:10:11,220 cultures how would you characterize the 186 00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:13,920 NASA and JSC's cultures have they 187 00:10:18,380 --> 00:10:17,040 changed do they need to change well I 188 00:10:20,540 --> 00:10:18,390 think again there's some very 189 00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:20,550 fundamental things with culture I think 190 00:10:29,060 --> 00:10:24,870 I think that at the Johnson Space Center 191 00:10:30,230 --> 00:10:29,070 I think we have a culture that is I 192 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:30,240 don't know if you'd call a participative 193 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:32,130 management or they're certainly an 194 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:34,610 interactive there's an interactive 195 00:10:38,829 --> 00:10:36,930 activity interaction activity that takes 196 00:10:41,410 --> 00:10:38,839 place in making a decision 197 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:41,420 we have been left with the legacy that 198 00:10:46,790 --> 00:10:44,610 that if you have an issue that you have 199 00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:46,800 a concern you feel free to express your 200 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:49,440 concern we weigh the problem we work the 201 00:10:53,509 --> 00:10:52,410 problem and if the you may not always go 202 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:53,519 the way people the answer mean always 203 00:10:57,500 --> 00:10:55,050 come out the way people want it but 204 00:11:01,939 --> 00:10:57,510 you're explained how you what decision 205 00:11:05,569 --> 00:11:01,949 you make and and you go on from there I 206 00:11:09,850 --> 00:11:05,579 think that the only culture change that 207 00:11:12,350 --> 00:11:09,860 I see that may take place is maybe the 208 00:11:15,439 --> 00:11:12,360 some external environment that says 209 00:11:18,110 --> 00:11:15,449 there are more external pressures in 210 00:11:20,210 --> 00:11:18,120 terms of overview committees but even 211 00:11:21,769 --> 00:11:20,220 then if you go back in the early days we 212 00:11:24,889 --> 00:11:21,779 still had a lot of overview committee so 213 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:24,899 I'm not sure I see a big change except 214 00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:26,310 for the one fact at the Johnson Space 215 00:11:34,730 --> 00:11:31,680 Center is that we had previously had the 216 00:11:38,170 --> 00:11:34,740 one big program of a Mercury Gemini 217 00:11:40,340 --> 00:11:38,180 Apollo it would come up and go away 218 00:11:42,410 --> 00:11:40,350 today we have shuttle and it's going to 219 00:11:43,639 --> 00:11:42,420 be with us for a long time and we've got 220 00:11:45,230 --> 00:11:43,649 space station it's going to be with us 221 00:11:46,730 --> 00:11:45,240 for a long time and then if we go on to 222 00:11:48,139 --> 00:11:46,740 the lunar Mars initiative that's going 223 00:11:49,490 --> 00:11:48,149 to be with us for a long time so I think 224 00:11:51,650 --> 00:11:49,500 the culture is going to have to be able 225 00:11:54,370 --> 00:11:51,660 to accept and adapt to how you handle 226 00:11:57,620 --> 00:11:54,380 large multiple programs at the same time 227 00:11:59,720 --> 00:11:57,630 right you have anything well there's a 228 00:12:01,970 --> 00:11:59,730 couple of things that I see that has 229 00:12:04,009 --> 00:12:01,980 changed with time and it's kind of 230 00:12:06,680 --> 00:12:04,019 changing back now the first one we 231 00:12:10,430 --> 00:12:06,690 started out with Apollo we had a few 232 00:12:12,319 --> 00:12:10,440 what had called mature people and then 233 00:12:15,379 --> 00:12:12,329 we had a large number of people there's 234 00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:15,389 fresh out of college when the shuttle 235 00:12:20,540 --> 00:12:18,000 program started then we had that 236 00:12:22,610 --> 00:12:20,550 experience team that went through the 237 00:12:25,490 --> 00:12:22,620 Apollo program we learn an awful lot 238 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:25,500 Apollo program and now as we start on 239 00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:27,569 Space Station we're going to develop 240 00:12:31,470 --> 00:12:29,910 space station with a few mature people 241 00:12:35,370 --> 00:12:31,480 and a lot of young 242 00:12:37,949 --> 00:12:35,380 so we're that's a good point i'm the 243 00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:37,959 type of organization that we had in 244 00:12:41,699 --> 00:12:39,519 there let me ask you Joe what do you 245 00:12:43,189 --> 00:12:41,709 think you've been you've been even 246 00:12:47,129 --> 00:12:43,199 around with what you're feeling on that 247 00:12:51,319 --> 00:12:47,139 well I think as you pointed out JSC 248 00:12:54,509 --> 00:12:51,329 developed a very unique kind of culture 249 00:12:57,590 --> 00:12:54,519 outside observers have characterized our 250 00:13:01,769 --> 00:12:57,600 decision making as being collegial and 251 00:13:04,350 --> 00:13:01,779 have had difficulty understanding why we 252 00:13:06,329 --> 00:13:04,360 seem to be able to do it but I think 253 00:13:09,569 --> 00:13:06,339 it's because we've dealt with issues 254 00:13:12,569 --> 00:13:09,579 that are very complex very technical and 255 00:13:14,910 --> 00:13:12,579 in which no one person had all the 256 00:13:17,519 --> 00:13:14,920 technical expertise to make a decision 257 00:13:19,889 --> 00:13:17,529 so there was always this collegial 258 00:13:21,930 --> 00:13:19,899 discussion and then the program manager 259 00:13:23,699 --> 00:13:21,940 because he was the appointed decision 260 00:13:25,199 --> 00:13:23,709 maker made the decision that's a good 261 00:13:28,319 --> 00:13:25,209 point I'm glad you brought that up the 262 00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:28,329 the program manager is like the border 263 00:13:31,379 --> 00:13:30,310 tremor of the board he has 51 percent of 264 00:13:32,970 --> 00:13:31,389 the vote and I think that is the 265 00:13:35,340 --> 00:13:32,980 important thing that the program manager 266 00:13:37,079 --> 00:13:35,350 has to recognize that responsibility and 267 00:13:42,269 --> 00:13:37,089 he you do have to give him fifty one 268 00:13:43,860 --> 00:13:42,279 percent of the vote Erinn one of the 269 00:13:47,069 --> 00:13:43,870 things that might be interesting to 270 00:13:48,930 --> 00:13:47,079 discuss his wyjsc uses a matrix 271 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:48,940 management system it was fashionable 272 00:13:55,139 --> 00:13:52,569 when we were formed in the 60s it's no 273 00:13:57,389 --> 00:13:55,149 longer so fashionable in industry but we 274 00:13:59,970 --> 00:13:57,399 still use it well I think there's a 275 00:14:01,740 --> 00:13:59,980 several reasons why you basically use a 276 00:14:08,699 --> 00:14:01,750 matrix management you use a matrix 277 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:08,709 management for one reason is if you want 278 00:14:12,449 --> 00:14:09,970 a good check and balance on the program 279 00:14:14,430 --> 00:14:12,459 that's one reason why i use it in fact i 280 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:14,440 would say that was the reason why we 281 00:14:18,750 --> 00:14:17,050 originally used it was because we wanted 282 00:14:22,170 --> 00:14:18,760 to have a check and balance of the 283 00:14:25,319 --> 00:14:22,180 various parts of the institution on the 284 00:14:27,990 --> 00:14:25,329 program and that is a very good 285 00:14:30,780 --> 00:14:28,000 attribute to have the other reason why 286 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:30,790 use a matrix management is because you 287 00:14:34,860 --> 00:14:33,010 have multiple programs and that's the 288 00:14:36,750 --> 00:14:34,870 way you handle multiple potent programs 289 00:14:39,030 --> 00:14:36,760 is going to matrix management now we're 290 00:14:40,259 --> 00:14:39,040 going into have to use matrix management 291 00:14:41,850 --> 00:14:40,269 for that reason but the original reason 292 00:14:43,829 --> 00:14:41,860 was more for the check in check and 293 00:14:44,889 --> 00:14:43,839 balance there are some disadvantages as 294 00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:44,899 you know make 295 00:14:49,090 --> 00:14:47,600 management you don't have the autonomy 296 00:14:51,429 --> 00:14:49,100 the program doesn't have the complete 297 00:14:53,170 --> 00:14:51,439 autonomy and as a project manager I've 298 00:14:54,970 --> 00:14:53,180 got to admit I sometimes I was very 299 00:14:56,739 --> 00:14:54,980 frustrated with that but I've got to 300 00:14:59,499 --> 00:14:56,749 tell you that has a project manager I 301 00:15:01,059 --> 00:14:59,509 learned to love it because you do have 302 00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:01,069 that check and balance and I think that 303 00:15:05,079 --> 00:15:02,990 check and balance is important of course 304 00:15:06,639 --> 00:15:05,089 at the Johnson Space Center I think 305 00:15:09,309 --> 00:15:06,649 there's another reason why it could be 306 00:15:11,199 --> 00:15:09,319 very difficult for us to eliminate the 307 00:15:12,850 --> 00:15:11,209 matrix management even though some 308 00:15:15,790 --> 00:15:12,860 places are getting away from it is 309 00:15:18,189 --> 00:15:15,800 because we have the very intricate 310 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:18,199 interweaving of our operations activity 311 00:15:22,749 --> 00:15:21,529 with our design activity and I think 312 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:22,759 that is probably the only way you're 313 00:15:25,509 --> 00:15:24,050 going to be really able to do that is 314 00:15:27,369 --> 00:15:25,519 with a matrix management system here at 315 00:15:29,879 --> 00:15:27,379 the Johnson Space Center but I'm not 316 00:15:32,139 --> 00:15:29,889 sure I'll car that fits all all all 317 00:15:36,129 --> 00:15:32,149 organizations are companies today no 318 00:15:39,009 --> 00:15:36,139 Henry yet yeah i think you know in our 319 00:15:42,519 --> 00:15:39,019 situation matrix management gives us a 320 00:15:45,220 --> 00:15:42,529 great deal more flexibility to use the 321 00:15:47,019 --> 00:15:45,230 expertise that you have when you not you 322 00:15:48,850 --> 00:15:47,029 don't have a great deal of depth you can 323 00:15:50,769 --> 00:15:48,860 use the experts on a lot of different 324 00:15:52,540 --> 00:15:50,779 programs you can use them this week on 325 00:15:54,579 --> 00:15:52,550 this program next week on this program 326 00:15:56,889 --> 00:15:54,589 and next month on that program over 327 00:15:59,530 --> 00:15:56,899 there as problems arise in each one of 328 00:16:01,780 --> 00:15:59,540 those those programs they usually don't 329 00:16:03,579 --> 00:16:01,790 happen at the same time and I think 330 00:16:07,689 --> 00:16:03,589 there's another message here about the 331 00:16:10,540 --> 00:16:07,699 management that any organization can 332 00:16:12,759 --> 00:16:10,550 work so long is this the will of the 333 00:16:15,549 --> 00:16:12,769 people and the will of all of the people 334 00:16:17,230 --> 00:16:15,559 to want it to work I think that's one of 335 00:16:19,869 --> 00:16:17,240 the key ingredients to make an 336 00:16:23,350 --> 00:16:19,879 organization work the best organization 337 00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:23,360 in the world will not work if the people 338 00:16:27,189 --> 00:16:25,910 don't want it to work and I think that's 339 00:16:31,629 --> 00:16:27,199 one of the things that we've been able 340 00:16:34,299 --> 00:16:31,639 to do here is to keep arrow body with 341 00:16:37,299 --> 00:16:34,309 with a sense of responsibility as sense 342 00:16:39,939 --> 00:16:37,309 to do the wont to do the job or feeling 343 00:16:42,340 --> 00:16:39,949 responsible for making the hardware work 344 00:16:44,799 --> 00:16:42,350 and that's been a key ingredient to 345 00:16:46,359 --> 00:16:44,809 making matrix manage my work here at 346 00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:46,369 this Center so I'd like to you know I 347 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:47,209 don't care what you have to say because 348 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:48,649 I know if you studied management systems 349 00:16:54,569 --> 00:16:49,850 for some time and I'd like to hear what 350 00:16:56,999 --> 00:16:54,579 you had to say that well I think that 351 00:16:59,850 --> 00:16:57,009 as a government organization responsible 352 00:17:04,169 --> 00:16:59,860 for the initiation and the continuing 353 00:17:07,169 --> 00:17:04,179 management of programs we do not have as 354 00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:07,179 narrow and sharper focus as you can 355 00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:10,480 create in a business enterprise and I 356 00:17:15,120 --> 00:17:13,360 think the complexity of our task forces 357 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:15,130 us into a matrix meaning that's the 358 00:17:26,639 --> 00:17:22,699 in the context and of this management 359 00:17:29,399 --> 00:17:26,649 structure how would you deal with the 360 00:17:32,879 --> 00:17:29,409 various elements of cost schedule and 361 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:32,889 performance as they are embodied in the 362 00:17:37,620 --> 00:17:34,690 various functional elements that work 363 00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:37,630 with you well of course you hit the key 364 00:17:43,919 --> 00:17:40,750 of the whole program management theme of 365 00:17:46,769 --> 00:17:43,929 the balance of performance cost and 366 00:17:49,110 --> 00:17:46,779 schedule that is a continuing trade and 367 00:17:51,180 --> 00:17:49,120 that is the you might say that is the 368 00:17:53,669 --> 00:17:51,190 life a project or program manager lives 369 00:17:56,490 --> 00:17:53,679 with from the from the conception of the 370 00:17:59,580 --> 00:17:56,500 program to its end it's a continuing 371 00:18:01,710 --> 00:17:59,590 trade off and you can ever you can never 372 00:18:03,690 --> 00:18:01,720 solve you cannot marry everybody happy 373 00:18:05,580 --> 00:18:03,700 but maybe we'll never make everybody 374 00:18:07,350 --> 00:18:05,590 happy with those three elements let's 375 00:18:09,509 --> 00:18:07,360 continue trade off you know I used to 376 00:18:11,370 --> 00:18:09,519 use a very simple analogy when I used to 377 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:11,380 used to work with people they've come to 378 00:18:15,539 --> 00:18:12,850 my office and I'd say okay now what I 379 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:15,549 want you to do is help me I would like 380 00:18:21,419 --> 00:18:18,490 you to play like for a moment that 381 00:18:24,509 --> 00:18:21,429 you're in business for yourself and you 382 00:18:25,980 --> 00:18:24,519 can't afford to to give it to produce a 383 00:18:28,019 --> 00:18:25,990 bad product so you want to you want to 384 00:18:30,330 --> 00:18:28,029 improve it on the other hand you're in 385 00:18:31,830 --> 00:18:30,340 business to make a profit and you can't 386 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:31,840 afford to put all this money into it now 387 00:18:36,450 --> 00:18:34,090 now help me figure out how to do that 388 00:18:38,310 --> 00:18:36,460 how to get that product out on time so I 389 00:18:39,299 --> 00:18:38,320 really think it boils down to that that 390 00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:39,309 one thing though I think you can't 391 00:18:43,259 --> 00:18:41,289 afford to do in a man program and I 392 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:43,269 think it's true in the any unmanned 393 00:18:47,340 --> 00:18:45,490 programs too is you can't afford a 394 00:18:49,620 --> 00:18:47,350 failure failures are very expensive and 395 00:18:51,450 --> 00:18:49,630 so other safety and reliability and 396 00:18:53,279 --> 00:18:51,460 quality has got to be maintained in that 397 00:18:55,769 --> 00:18:53,289 and so and there's ways to do that and 398 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:55,779 you can still balance off those three 399 00:19:00,570 --> 00:18:57,490 parameters and still get a very high 400 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:00,580 quality high quality product reliable 401 00:19:05,639 --> 00:19:02,770 product and safe product so it is a 402 00:19:08,110 --> 00:19:05,649 tough job and there is no closed-form 403 00:19:09,670 --> 00:19:08,120 solution there's by there 404 00:19:12,010 --> 00:19:09,680 let me believe me there are is no 405 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:12,020 closed-form solution to to that 406 00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:14,090 trade-off it is a continuing continuing 407 00:19:19,510 --> 00:19:17,840 trade of those three parameters we've 408 00:19:21,970 --> 00:19:19,520 talked a good bit about engineering 409 00:19:24,940 --> 00:19:21,980 could you talk a little bit about how 410 00:19:27,490 --> 00:19:24,950 you use your program control and your 411 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:27,500 business analysis people yeah let me do 412 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:29,810 that and let me do that in the context 413 00:19:36,130 --> 00:19:34,010 of a term I call avoiding pitfalls if 414 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:36,140 you go back and you look at history of 415 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:38,090 program managers and project managers 416 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:40,610 the first pitfall the first thing that 417 00:19:43,270 --> 00:19:41,690 happens is when you become a project 418 00:19:44,290 --> 00:19:43,280 manager you have you for you you know 419 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:44,300 that's the greatest thing that ever 420 00:19:47,740 --> 00:19:46,610 happened to you in fact my wife used to 421 00:19:48,970 --> 00:19:47,750 say the greatest thing could happen Erin 422 00:19:50,980 --> 00:19:48,980 is the day you became the auger project 423 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:50,990 manager and then from then on it was is 424 00:19:56,350 --> 00:19:54,530 really tough but it is the before you 425 00:19:58,780 --> 00:19:56,360 become but then you got to avoid the 426 00:20:01,840 --> 00:19:58,790 pitfalls in the first pitfall you really 427 00:20:04,300 --> 00:20:01,850 have it as a project manager is normally 428 00:20:07,090 --> 00:20:04,310 cost overruns that's the first thing you 429 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:07,100 normally see is cost overruns the second 430 00:20:12,010 --> 00:20:09,770 problem a project manager pitfall the 431 00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:12,020 project manager has a schedule and then 432 00:20:18,190 --> 00:20:14,720 you you saw normally you'll you'll solve 433 00:20:20,410 --> 00:20:18,200 your they let solve the the cost problem 434 00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:20,420 by either replacing the project manager 435 00:20:24,250 --> 00:20:21,710 or somebody figuring out how to do it 436 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:24,260 and then the schedule gets the is the 437 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:25,970 problem you have to run into and then of 438 00:20:29,170 --> 00:20:27,410 course it becomes the performance 439 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:29,180 problems of getting it done and getting 440 00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:31,250 a good product but getting back to your 441 00:20:37,270 --> 00:20:33,020 specific question I think in that 442 00:20:39,490 --> 00:20:37,280 context the project control is the 443 00:20:42,790 --> 00:20:39,500 important element in helping you avoid 444 00:20:45,610 --> 00:20:42,800 those pitfalls you need to use your 445 00:20:48,070 --> 00:20:45,620 contract as a good tool you need to have 446 00:20:50,140 --> 00:20:48,080 the project control office help you 447 00:20:53,290 --> 00:20:50,150 manage that contract you need to have a 448 00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:53,300 good configuration control you need to 449 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:55,520 be able to have them give you a good 450 00:20:59,830 --> 00:20:57,530 budget estimate keeping up with your 451 00:21:03,040 --> 00:20:59,840 schedules and if you do that give you 452 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:03,050 that insight those are the ways over and 453 00:21:06,010 --> 00:21:04,310 above the technical as you pointed out 454 00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:06,020 those are the ways that you can 455 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:08,630 potentially you have the best chance of 456 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:10,610 avoiding those pitfalls and I think it's 457 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:12,050 extremely important element of it 458 00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:14,450 engineering is good and is important but 459 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:16,370 believe me the business management end 460 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:19,130 of the program is vitally important to 461 00:21:26,770 --> 00:21:22,210 the success of a program 462 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:26,780 and may perhaps you and Aaron could 463 00:21:32,050 --> 00:21:28,970 speak to the subject of what should be 464 00:21:34,060 --> 00:21:32,060 the proper relationship between the 465 00:21:36,430 --> 00:21:34,070 government engineering organization and 466 00:21:39,730 --> 00:21:36,440 program management organization and its 467 00:21:41,380 --> 00:21:39,740 contractors yeah but could I come back 468 00:21:44,620 --> 00:21:41,390 to the last question for just a minute 469 00:21:47,220 --> 00:21:44,630 on program control you know one of the 470 00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:47,230 things that you find about engineers is 471 00:21:53,890 --> 00:21:50,840 that engineers for some reason do not 472 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:53,900 like to deal with budgets they do not 473 00:21:59,740 --> 00:21:57,290 like to deal with costs they'll deal 474 00:22:01,690 --> 00:21:59,750 with schedules fairly well but they 475 00:22:04,750 --> 00:22:01,700 don't like to deal with budgets and 476 00:22:08,620 --> 00:22:04,760 costs and frequently don't keep track of 477 00:22:10,060 --> 00:22:08,630 the effort that's being produced per 478 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:10,070 length of time that they're working on 479 00:22:14,290 --> 00:22:12,050 it and their costs will get out of hand 480 00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:14,300 and I think that's one of the key areas 481 00:22:18,820 --> 00:22:16,430 where a good program control office 482 00:22:24,610 --> 00:22:18,830 comes into play is they tend to keep the 483 00:22:28,870 --> 00:22:24,620 schedule the budget and and that balance 484 00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:28,880 of the program in proper focus okay you 485 00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:30,500 want me to take a shot linea let me 486 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:31,910 answer that the other question because I 487 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:34,850 didn't think about it like I think if 488 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:39,890 you if you go back to the Apollo 20 for 489 00:22:44,590 --> 00:22:42,410 fire and I this thing all sticks in my 490 00:22:47,610 --> 00:22:44,600 mind there was a statement in the report 491 00:22:52,060 --> 00:22:47,620 that said that I'll paraphrase it that 492 00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:52,070 the doing spaceflight human spaceflight 493 00:22:57,340 --> 00:22:54,710 you have to overcome a hostile external 494 00:22:58,480 --> 00:22:57,350 environment and to overcome a hostile 495 00:23:00,970 --> 00:22:58,490 external environment you need teamwork 496 00:23:03,870 --> 00:23:00,980 so I think that's the thing you need a 497 00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:03,880 teamwork between you're the contractor 498 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:06,110 and the government I don't think there's 499 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:07,370 any question about that that you need 500 00:23:14,410 --> 00:23:10,970 teamwork on the other hand you need to 501 00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:14,420 have a plan an implementation plan that 502 00:23:19,750 --> 00:23:18,080 you can award the contract contractor 503 00:23:21,340 --> 00:23:19,760 when he does a good job but she also 504 00:23:23,470 --> 00:23:21,350 need to penalize the contractor when he 505 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:23,480 does a bad job so I do think you need 506 00:23:28,810 --> 00:23:26,330 teamwork and to get a good safe reliable 507 00:23:30,670 --> 00:23:28,820 efficient product but she do need a way 508 00:23:31,270 --> 00:23:30,680 to penalize him when he doesn't do a 509 00:23:36,190 --> 00:23:31,280 good job 510 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:36,200 morning leaders yeah the only thing I 511 00:23:40,780 --> 00:23:37,850 could add to that Aaron would be that 512 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:40,790 that you both need a good understanding 513 00:23:46,300 --> 00:23:42,770 of the product that you're going to 514 00:23:48,790 --> 00:23:46,310 prove your son you know you both need to 515 00:23:51,070 --> 00:23:48,800 be working toward the same game plan and 516 00:23:53,830 --> 00:23:51,080 both parties need to understand that 517 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:53,840 very very clearly and that's what you 518 00:23:58,330 --> 00:23:56,090 mean by teamwork it's like that but you 519 00:24:00,130 --> 00:23:58,340 got to have that it's very very critical 520 00:24:02,140 --> 00:24:00,140 and also to the teamwork I mean the fact 521 00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:02,150 that the way NASA operates I think 522 00:24:06,910 --> 00:24:04,310 that's typical at all centers we do 523 00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:06,920 pride ourselves and I think we justified 524 00:24:11,940 --> 00:24:09,500 be so that we do have a technical 525 00:24:14,770 --> 00:24:11,950 capability and technical excellence and 526 00:24:17,170 --> 00:24:14,780 many times we have the technical 527 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:17,180 capability because of our facilities 528 00:24:21,490 --> 00:24:18,770 because of the the way we have done 529 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:21,500 things that our technical t I think and 530 00:24:26,020 --> 00:24:24,170 sometimes it tends to be in selected 531 00:24:27,730 --> 00:24:26,030 areas greater than some of our 532 00:24:29,260 --> 00:24:27,740 contractors in some areas our 533 00:24:31,390 --> 00:24:29,270 contractors have better technical 534 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:31,400 capability then then we have and I think 535 00:24:35,860 --> 00:24:33,710 we need to know how to utilize both of 536 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:35,870 those two full advantage that's 537 00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:37,850 especially true hearing in those areas 538 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:39,260 where we've had the opportunity to go 539 00:24:43,090 --> 00:24:41,210 through several programs and sequence 540 00:24:47,980 --> 00:24:43,100 and then you got another contractor 541 00:24:49,630 --> 00:24:47,990 that's a new honor on a straight Aaron 542 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:49,640 how would you like to talk for a moment 543 00:24:53,470 --> 00:24:51,410 or two to the subject of the 544 00:24:56,290 --> 00:24:53,480 relationship between the program office 545 00:24:59,530 --> 00:24:56,300 and the institution of the center itself 546 00:25:01,960 --> 00:24:59,540 well of course with a with a matrix 547 00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:01,970 management system they're very 548 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:04,910 intertwined you know you can always 549 00:25:08,860 --> 00:25:07,490 argue are the programs here to serve the 550 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:08,870 for the institution or is the 551 00:25:13,630 --> 00:25:10,970 institution here to serve the program 552 00:25:18,660 --> 00:25:13,640 and i think it's it's a little bit of 553 00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:18,670 both I think that as we stated before 554 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:22,480 there is a support from the institution 555 00:25:28,390 --> 00:25:26,690 to the to the program if you look at the 556 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:28,400 Johnson Space Center specifically we 557 00:25:30,970 --> 00:25:29,450 have basically an engineering 558 00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:30,980 organization under Henry we have an 559 00:25:34,690 --> 00:25:33,230 Operations organization and a science 560 00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:34,700 organization and then we have the 561 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:37,720 supporting functions and those are all 562 00:25:43,780 --> 00:25:40,610 matrix you might say support to the 563 00:25:45,070 --> 00:25:43,790 program manager and as we said before he 564 00:25:47,530 --> 00:25:45,080 gets inputs from that there's 565 00:25:49,780 --> 00:25:47,540 check and balance where the institution 566 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:49,790 does support the program manager but you 567 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:51,650 do have to say that the program manager 568 00:25:56,550 --> 00:25:53,210 you have to give somebody that rain and 569 00:25:59,230 --> 00:25:56,560 the program manager he fulfills the 570 00:26:01,060 --> 00:25:59,240 criteria I said out with that we start 571 00:26:03,580 --> 00:26:01,070 off this discussion on fulfills that 572 00:26:05,230 --> 00:26:03,590 criteria he's justifiable having 51 573 00:26:08,410 --> 00:26:05,240 percent of the vote and making the right 574 00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:08,420 decision I think I could even make a 575 00:26:12,850 --> 00:26:10,310 stronger case for the it for the feet to 576 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:12,860 one percent because if it was not for 577 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:15,530 the programs you would have little need 578 00:26:22,450 --> 00:26:20,090 for an institution because our total 579 00:26:26,530 --> 00:26:22,460 endeavor is in support of the projects 580 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:26,540 are the programs at hand and it's a 581 00:26:33,910 --> 00:26:28,010 matter of how you go about doing it 582 00:26:38,770 --> 00:26:33,920 that's right Aaron it might be good to 583 00:26:42,870 --> 00:26:38,780 take a couple of cases in point what was 584 00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:42,880 your most trying decision during Apollo 585 00:26:47,170 --> 00:26:45,200 well there are a couple Joe and I'd like 586 00:26:49,630 --> 00:26:47,180 to you and Henry were there too I there 587 00:26:52,030 --> 00:26:49,640 was a couple one I remember very 588 00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:52,040 distinctly which I probably learned one 589 00:26:58,090 --> 00:26:55,760 of my biggest lessons from was I I think 590 00:27:01,330 --> 00:26:58,100 the admission was Apollo 11 but i think 591 00:27:04,270 --> 00:27:01,340 it was there was an inertial measurement 592 00:27:07,630 --> 00:27:04,280 unit that was a little bit out of spec 593 00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:07,640 not much out of spec and we were we were 594 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:09,760 thrashing around whether we should 595 00:27:15,010 --> 00:27:12,730 remove that initial measurement unit and 596 00:27:17,350 --> 00:27:15,020 if you know the lunar module was a 597 00:27:18,670 --> 00:27:17,360 pretty flimsy and i would say flimsy but 598 00:27:20,110 --> 00:27:18,680 it wasn't it didn't have a very hefty 599 00:27:22,150 --> 00:27:20,120 structured was on the stack out of the 600 00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:22,160 pad and we had to make a decision where 601 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:23,180 we should replace that inertial 602 00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:24,530 measurement unit or should we live with 603 00:27:30,130 --> 00:27:27,860 it and and we went to we talked about a 604 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:30,140 long time we went to George Lowe and we 605 00:27:33,070 --> 00:27:31,610 really recommended give him all the data 606 00:27:35,050 --> 00:27:33,080 but we came up with a recommendation 607 00:27:36,820 --> 00:27:35,060 that says we really should not change 608 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:36,830 that at IMU out the inertial measurement 609 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:38,690 unit now there's a risk in doing it we 610 00:27:43,390 --> 00:27:41,330 could live with it and he thought for a 611 00:27:46,750 --> 00:27:43,400 moment and looked at us he said if you 612 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:46,760 can if we can remove that issue from the 613 00:27:50,740 --> 00:27:49,010 equation we ought to go change it out so 614 00:27:52,090 --> 00:27:50,750 I want to go change the IMU out so that 615 00:27:54,610 --> 00:27:52,100 was a good point I was good that was a 616 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:54,620 good lesson that I learned and always 617 00:27:58,010 --> 00:27:55,650 keep in the back of my 618 00:27:59,600 --> 00:27:58,020 the other one was one I think it was wow 619 00:28:01,910 --> 00:27:59,610 if it was Henry of one of his people in 620 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:01,920 propulsion area that came to me in as 621 00:28:06,620 --> 00:28:04,650 well that was on Apollo 8 where we had 622 00:28:09,050 --> 00:28:06,630 this issue on the injector of the sps 623 00:28:12,020 --> 00:28:09,060 edge and where we found that it's a long 624 00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:12,030 story we found that if you fired the 625 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:14,370 ejector dry with both banks of the of 626 00:28:19,730 --> 00:28:17,730 the in the engine that you could have a 627 00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:19,740 detonation essentially causes pressure 628 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:23,520 spike and damage the chamber and I have 629 00:28:29,210 --> 00:28:25,170 one of Henry's guys i Henry bought it to 630 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:29,220 me and and here we ready to fly Apollo 8 631 00:28:32,770 --> 00:28:30,690 to the moon first time we ever left the 632 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:32,780 Earth's gravity going to the moon and 633 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:35,490 the way we were going to do it is we 634 00:28:41,930 --> 00:28:37,890 were going to fire both banks of those 635 00:28:44,890 --> 00:28:41,940 engines when we got into lunar orbit so 636 00:28:47,810 --> 00:28:44,900 we could be sure we got into a good burn 637 00:28:49,250 --> 00:28:47,820 and that could have been a bad that's 638 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:49,260 the way the process was set up so these 639 00:28:53,450 --> 00:28:51,930 guys brought that to me and I I got 640 00:28:55,610 --> 00:28:53,460 pretty excited about it here was 11th 641 00:28:57,260 --> 00:28:55,620 hour and I had a fair of it but they 642 00:28:59,270 --> 00:28:57,270 came to me with a solution they said 643 00:29:01,070 --> 00:28:59,280 what she could do is you could fire on 644 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:01,080 way out she could fire out a plane just 645 00:29:04,610 --> 00:29:02,970 what the bank one with one engine and as 646 00:29:05,930 --> 00:29:04,620 you go fire the other bank with the 647 00:29:07,190 --> 00:29:05,940 other engine get back and playing not to 648 00:29:08,810 --> 00:29:07,200 store your free return trajectory and 649 00:29:10,340 --> 00:29:08,820 have both banks wedded so you can then 650 00:29:12,110 --> 00:29:10,350 when you got you could fire both engine 651 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:12,120 be saved but I was the one who had to 652 00:29:16,010 --> 00:29:13,770 call George Lowe tell him that that at 653 00:29:18,290 --> 00:29:16,020 the cape and that was an interesting 654 00:29:20,990 --> 00:29:18,300 experience and I did that but I think 655 00:29:23,420 --> 00:29:21,000 the message there was that and I think 656 00:29:24,410 --> 00:29:23,430 there's a very key message there and I 657 00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:24,420 think that's probably one of the most 658 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:27,360 important important lessons to learn and 659 00:29:33,470 --> 00:29:30,690 that is that you should a project 660 00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:33,480 manager our manager should give the 661 00:29:38,290 --> 00:29:35,910 feeling to the people that he works with 662 00:29:40,670 --> 00:29:38,300 that they can bring him problems and 663 00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:40,680 they can bring him any kind of problem 664 00:29:45,020 --> 00:29:42,960 and that he's willing to understand that 665 00:29:47,090 --> 00:29:45,030 and work with him to us to a solution 666 00:29:49,510 --> 00:29:47,100 and so that was a very healthy situation 667 00:29:52,490 --> 00:29:49,520 I think if you can expel that type of 668 00:29:56,780 --> 00:29:52,500 feeling amongst all your people I think 669 00:29:58,850 --> 00:29:56,790 you'll be very successful Henry how do 670 00:30:03,549 --> 00:29:58,860 you try to create that sense in your 671 00:30:09,709 --> 00:30:06,649 you do it by giving them a feeling of 672 00:30:11,599 --> 00:30:09,719 responsibility that it is their 673 00:30:13,849 --> 00:30:11,609 responsibility to make absolutely 674 00:30:16,999 --> 00:30:13,859 certain that their hardware is going to 675 00:30:18,769 --> 00:30:17,009 fail it's going to work if they feel 676 00:30:21,619 --> 00:30:18,779 like it's going to fail it is their 677 00:30:23,659 --> 00:30:21,629 responsibility to bring it forward and 678 00:30:25,759 --> 00:30:23,669 it's not always pleasant one of the most 679 00:30:27,469 --> 00:30:25,769 difficult things sometimes is go in and 680 00:30:32,749 --> 00:30:27,479 tell you boss something that you know 681 00:30:36,259 --> 00:30:32,759 your boss is not going to like I I can 682 00:30:38,029 --> 00:30:36,269 remember when this excuse me one night 683 00:30:40,459 --> 00:30:38,039 they called me at home by eleven o'clock 684 00:30:42,109 --> 00:30:40,469 at night and told me they had a pop in 685 00:30:45,139 --> 00:30:42,119 the command module when they were 686 00:30:46,969 --> 00:30:45,149 servicing nor RCS and I was up there are 687 00:30:49,039 --> 00:30:46,979 a few weeks before an attention creaking 688 00:30:50,899 --> 00:30:49,049 and popping and I didn't think too much 689 00:30:53,719 --> 00:30:50,909 about it but next morning I walked into 690 00:30:56,029 --> 00:30:53,729 one of my engineers that they had a pop 691 00:30:59,239 --> 00:30:56,039 in the tanks that shoot they brought a 692 00:31:01,159 --> 00:30:59,249 standpipe into says I just ran those 693 00:31:03,949 --> 00:31:01,169 calculations last week before I stand 694 00:31:05,659 --> 00:31:03,959 pipe into that was the one who we pulled 695 00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:05,669 the command module up we didn't replace 696 00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:08,369 the tank on it that was a pleasant thing 697 00:31:11,629 --> 00:31:10,049 to head and go forward tell somebody 698 00:31:14,329 --> 00:31:11,639 that we thought they school to stand 699 00:31:16,519 --> 00:31:14,339 pipe into no way to get in there sure 700 00:31:18,649 --> 00:31:16,529 enough they did they put it into that 701 00:31:20,479 --> 00:31:18,659 that is good that's the right way i can 702 00:31:23,869 --> 00:31:20,489 give you another if you got just ten 703 00:31:26,389 --> 00:31:23,879 seconds another good example on the RCS 704 00:31:28,579 --> 00:31:26,399 tanks they were made out of titanium 28 705 00:31:32,209 --> 00:31:28,589 days into a 30 day test one story 706 00:31:34,189 --> 00:31:32,219 leaking various all leak they cut that 707 00:31:37,579 --> 00:31:34,199 piece out analyzed it said it was caused 708 00:31:40,879 --> 00:31:37,589 from finger print that paper came across 709 00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:40,889 my desk I looked at it it looked fine I 710 00:31:46,669 --> 00:31:44,369 signed it sent it on its way sent one of 711 00:31:48,349 --> 00:31:46,679 the engineers out to look at those tanks 712 00:31:49,819 --> 00:31:48,359 he came back says henrik we can't let 713 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:49,829 him get away with that there was not a 714 00:31:54,859 --> 00:31:52,289 fingerprint I said why he said he'd take 715 00:31:56,050 --> 00:31:54,869 a monkey to get in there put his finger 716 00:31:59,690 --> 00:31:56,060 in there 717 00:32:03,980 --> 00:31:59,700 make a long story short we wouldn't put 718 00:32:07,610 --> 00:32:03,990 10 tanks and test after much arguing 719 00:32:09,950 --> 00:32:07,620 over it but he wouldn't give up every 720 00:32:11,780 --> 00:32:09,960 day he came in at least once it says 721 00:32:14,140 --> 00:32:11,790 Henrik we have to do something about 722 00:32:17,950 --> 00:32:14,150 that that was not a random failure and 723 00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:17,960 so finally I got the nerve to go forward 724 00:32:23,180 --> 00:32:20,340 tell the program manager that we had a 725 00:32:25,220 --> 00:32:23,190 problem and when I did we got 10 tanks 726 00:32:28,010 --> 00:32:25,230 and tests and ninety eight hours in the 727 00:32:29,870 --> 00:32:28,020 test three of them blew up just broke 728 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:29,880 wide open of course then you didn't have 729 00:32:36,140 --> 00:32:31,650 to worry about it anymore we fixed it 730 00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:36,150 but it is through his integrity and his 731 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:39,390 concern and him not letting it die that 732 00:32:46,510 --> 00:32:41,490 kept us from having a problem on the 733 00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:46,520 first Paula Paula fight and somehow that 734 00:32:53,180 --> 00:32:50,310 needs to be reinforced every day of 735 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:53,190 every week you know if you don't do your 736 00:33:00,350 --> 00:32:56,010 job and you don't do it good the bird 737 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:00,360 will fly and so I see that is one of our 738 00:33:07,340 --> 00:33:03,570 major jobs as managers is to convince 739 00:33:10,940 --> 00:33:07,350 the people that we're working with every 740 00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:10,950 day that it's their responsibility to 741 00:33:16,550 --> 00:33:13,440 understand their hard work and if they 742 00:33:19,340 --> 00:33:16,560 see something that they feel is not 743 00:33:21,470 --> 00:33:19,350 right bring it forward and talk about it 744 00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:21,480 if you don't get the answer you want 745 00:33:26,420 --> 00:33:23,840 that day you bring it forward again and 746 00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:26,430 try to convince the people that you're 747 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:30,000 right in the final analysis it after you 748 00:33:35,630 --> 00:33:33,810 do that two or three times then you go 749 00:33:37,910 --> 00:33:35,640 back and you do it the way that you've 750 00:33:39,290 --> 00:33:37,920 been directed to do it but you make 751 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:39,300 every effort to convince them that 752 00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:43,050 you're right we've taken some examples 753 00:33:50,540 --> 00:33:46,740 from Apollo do you have one or two 754 00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:50,550 similar cases and settle progress of 755 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:52,640 course the thing we didn't talk about 756 00:33:56,150 --> 00:33:54,930 which i think is important as decision 757 00:34:03,440 --> 00:33:56,160 making 758 00:34:05,750 --> 00:34:03,450 even more important in that didn't by 759 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:05,760 definition not by Tommy decision making 760 00:34:09,020 --> 00:34:07,770 i'm not i don't really mean that you 761 00:34:10,700 --> 00:34:09,030 have to make decision right away it's 762 00:34:12,470 --> 00:34:10,710 got to be timed properly sometimes it's 763 00:34:13,909 --> 00:34:12,480 right away and sometimes you wait and 764 00:34:15,050 --> 00:34:13,919 sometimes you don't always have all the 765 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:15,060 information you need to make the 766 00:34:20,540 --> 00:34:17,370 decision but sometimes you need to make 767 00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:20,550 the decision without all the information 768 00:34:25,700 --> 00:34:23,910 and the fact that you've the fact that 769 00:34:27,140 --> 00:34:25,710 you've made a timely decision think the 770 00:34:30,590 --> 00:34:27,150 fact that you waited you have a good 771 00:34:35,330 --> 00:34:30,600 chance to be right a couple of items in 772 00:34:39,770 --> 00:34:35,340 the orbit program that come to mind one 773 00:34:42,409 --> 00:34:39,780 was one was early in the program we had 774 00:34:46,270 --> 00:34:42,419 to decide what type of landing system to 775 00:34:48,590 --> 00:34:46,280 use and it was a technology issue which 776 00:34:50,240 --> 00:34:48,600 we were going through in terms of what 777 00:34:55,720 --> 00:34:50,250 was the right technology to pick and we 778 00:34:59,780 --> 00:34:58,730 early part of the program of 72 time 779 00:35:01,850 --> 00:34:59,790 period whether we should go with the 780 00:35:02,930 --> 00:35:01,860 microwave landing system now let it make 781 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:02,940 the decision today would be pretty 782 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:04,710 straightforward but in that time period 783 00:35:07,820 --> 00:35:06,690 it was pretty hard to decide whether you 784 00:35:08,750 --> 00:35:07,830 should go with the microwave landing 785 00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:08,760 system and I didn't have all the 786 00:35:14,140 --> 00:35:11,250 information you know I didn't have it 787 00:35:16,820 --> 00:35:14,150 but I thought it was timely to do it and 788 00:35:18,140 --> 00:35:16,830 we I didn't really want to pay the money 789 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:18,150 to pick up all the technology 790 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:21,570 development and take that risk on the 791 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:22,890 other hand the performance looked awful 792 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:25,890 good so weighing that I made the 793 00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:26,970 decision to go with the microwave 794 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:28,140 landing system it turned out to be the 795 00:35:32,090 --> 00:35:30,090 right decision we went with it's been 796 00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:32,100 very successful and it's been one of our 797 00:35:40,490 --> 00:35:37,020 better systems another one is we were 798 00:35:43,100 --> 00:35:40,500 arguing one evening about the reversed 799 00:35:44,570 --> 00:35:43,110 on me this one was a good decision we 800 00:35:45,950 --> 00:35:44,580 were arguing one time about the number 801 00:35:48,380 --> 00:35:45,960 of structural test articles we need it 802 00:35:49,940 --> 00:35:48,390 and my budget was pretty tight and the 803 00:35:51,530 --> 00:35:49,950 engineering people came in and said we 804 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:51,540 needed I forgot how many structural test 805 00:35:55,070 --> 00:35:53,610 articles and and I looked at the budget 806 00:35:57,110 --> 00:35:55,080 that would cost do that and I said no 807 00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:57,120 we're going to cut cut five of them 808 00:35:58,940 --> 00:35:58,410 three or four or five or something like 809 00:36:06,200 --> 00:35:58,950 that 810 00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:06,210 came back to me about two months later 811 00:36:11,329 --> 00:36:08,520 and they really had a very good 812 00:36:13,670 --> 00:36:11,339 technical briefing of why technically 813 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:13,680 from a safety point of view they really 814 00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:15,210 needed the edit articles and I put them 815 00:36:18,290 --> 00:36:17,040 back in the program and didn't hurt 816 00:36:19,670 --> 00:36:18,300 anything because I didn't make a timely 817 00:36:21,829 --> 00:36:19,680 decision was able to pick up those out 818 00:36:23,150 --> 00:36:21,839 of test articles that ties in two things 819 00:36:25,069 --> 00:36:23,160 one that people were afraid to come back 820 00:36:27,470 --> 00:36:25,079 is Henry pointed out to tell you that 821 00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:27,480 you were wrong and number two I made a 822 00:36:32,359 --> 00:36:29,910 timely decision which gave me time to to 823 00:36:35,329 --> 00:36:32,369 fix the problem so I think there's two 824 00:36:37,060 --> 00:36:35,339 ends of the spectrum and I think Aaron 825 00:36:39,859 --> 00:36:37,070 that's one thing that we have to be 826 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:39,869 constantly balancing against a correct 827 00:36:45,980 --> 00:36:42,930 decision you know sometimes we can get 828 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:45,990 in the trap or a mold of feeling like we 829 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:49,290 might make a mistake and a lot of times 830 00:36:52,970 --> 00:36:51,210 the greatest mistake of all is not 831 00:36:54,710 --> 00:36:52,980 making a decision well I think that's 832 00:36:58,579 --> 00:36:54,720 right and I do think the other thing is 833 00:37:00,380 --> 00:36:58,589 I think you have to be able and be able 834 00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:00,390 to accept the criticism and the fact 835 00:37:03,890 --> 00:37:02,609 that you made a bad decision and reverse 836 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:03,900 yourself if you have to i think that's 837 00:37:12,079 --> 00:37:09,450 another absalon characteristic we've 838 00:37:15,109 --> 00:37:12,089 talked right up until now about the 839 00:37:17,359 --> 00:37:15,119 details of managing a project that both 840 00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:17,369 you and Henry have also managed line 841 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:19,200 organizations and I'd like you to 842 00:37:23,990 --> 00:37:22,050 comment on what you perceive is the 843 00:37:28,190 --> 00:37:24,000 differences in the management of a line 844 00:37:29,569 --> 00:37:28,200 organization versus a product there are 845 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:29,579 a lot of similarities there's no 846 00:37:34,430 --> 00:37:30,930 question there are a lot of similarities 847 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:34,440 in managing the project in managing the 848 00:37:40,190 --> 00:37:38,250 line organization I think the biggest 849 00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:40,200 difference is I see and I'd like to hear 850 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:41,310 what you have to say in Henry I say 851 00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:43,290 after I finish but I I think the biggest 852 00:37:47,839 --> 00:37:45,089 difference I see in managing a line 853 00:37:50,750 --> 00:37:47,849 organization that it does take a lot 854 00:37:52,730 --> 00:37:50,760 more time with your people in a line 855 00:37:54,470 --> 00:37:52,740 organization certainly a center director 856 00:37:57,050 --> 00:37:54,480 and certainly as a director of research 857 00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:57,060 and engineering than it does in managing 858 00:38:01,730 --> 00:38:00,000 a project takes a lot more time you 859 00:38:04,430 --> 00:38:01,740 still have trade-offs as managing 860 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:04,440 institution versus managing a project 861 00:38:09,140 --> 00:38:08,010 it's not as strong on the cost and 862 00:38:11,870 --> 00:38:09,150 schedule 863 00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:11,880 performance as much as is on parameter 864 00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:14,910 parameters but like parameters so 865 00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:16,529 there's a lot of similarity and I think 866 00:38:20,990 --> 00:38:18,390 the fundamental but I do go back to say 867 00:38:22,309 --> 00:38:21,000 to you that the fundamental that way 868 00:38:24,319 --> 00:38:22,319 that we start off this discussion the 869 00:38:28,220 --> 00:38:24,329 fundamental characteristics I think are 870 00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:28,230 about the same general I think you're 871 00:38:33,260 --> 00:38:31,049 right right on here and the the major 872 00:38:36,049 --> 00:38:33,270 difference that I see between being a 873 00:38:39,410 --> 00:38:36,059 project manager and being a director of 874 00:38:43,220 --> 00:38:39,420 a lion organization is that you have the 875 00:38:46,579 --> 00:38:43,230 administrative responsibilities your 876 00:38:49,910 --> 00:38:46,589 people as a lion organization we're 877 00:38:52,210 --> 00:38:49,920 generally a project manager spends very 878 00:38:55,130 --> 00:38:52,220 little time in the administrative 879 00:38:57,049 --> 00:38:55,140 responsibilities with their people first 880 00:38:58,510 --> 00:38:57,059 off they don't have a large number of 881 00:39:01,670 --> 00:38:58,520 people that they have to supervise 882 00:39:03,620 --> 00:39:01,680 directly they have a lot of people that 883 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:03,630 support them but they don't have to 884 00:39:08,599 --> 00:39:06,210 worry about the administrative part of 885 00:39:12,079 --> 00:39:08,609 it and that's a large part of trying to 886 00:39:15,529 --> 00:39:12,089 keep the spirit up the the can-do 887 00:39:18,109 --> 00:39:15,539 attitude up in an organization and that 888 00:39:19,940 --> 00:39:18,119 responsibility of 40 followers online 889 00:39:23,930 --> 00:39:19,950 organization tility head say about that 890 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:23,940 well I think Henry's point I is the one 891 00:39:28,910 --> 00:39:26,250 that comes to my mind is is that line 892 00:39:30,859 --> 00:39:28,920 organizations management's primary 893 00:39:34,460 --> 00:39:30,869 responsibility is the development of 894 00:39:38,450 --> 00:39:34,470 their people and the people are then 895 00:39:42,529 --> 00:39:38,460 used to support the programs so it's a 896 00:39:46,809 --> 00:39:42,539 it's much more of a paternal kind of 897 00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:46,819 management as opposed to objective 898 00:39:58,240 --> 00:39:55,809 what do you see to be the the most 899 00:40:01,020 --> 00:39:58,250 significant issues that we're going to 900 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:01,030 face in the next five to ten years or 901 00:40:11,829 --> 00:40:09,650 well I think as far as a NASA is 902 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:11,839 concerned NASA specifically I think we 903 00:40:18,370 --> 00:40:15,770 need to continue to maintain our 904 00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:18,380 technical excellence I feel that we need 905 00:40:24,970 --> 00:40:23,510 to continue to bring on good people we 906 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:24,980 need to continue to train our good 907 00:40:31,990 --> 00:40:29,410 people we need to give them the right a 908 00:40:35,530 --> 00:40:32,000 working environment in terms of 909 00:40:37,859 --> 00:40:35,540 facilities in terms of laboratories we 910 00:40:40,510 --> 00:40:37,869 want to stay a technically proficient 911 00:40:43,359 --> 00:40:40,520 organization and I think that's probably 912 00:40:47,710 --> 00:40:43,369 the fundamental thing for all NASA 913 00:40:52,359 --> 00:40:47,720 centers we want to be sure they have the 914 00:40:54,130 --> 00:40:52,369 right capability to maintain their 915 00:40:55,839 --> 00:40:54,140 educational proficiency their formal 916 00:40:59,170 --> 00:40:55,849 education whatever field it may be I 917 00:41:02,020 --> 00:40:59,180 think that's important I think we need 918 00:41:04,569 --> 00:41:02,030 to issue and I personally have talked 919 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:04,579 many times I think we need to have 920 00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:08,210 successful programs I think failures are 921 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:11,359 very devastating and we need to be able 922 00:41:17,980 --> 00:41:14,450 to maintain the momentum whether it's a 923 00:41:21,069 --> 00:41:17,990 man program whether it's a man program 924 00:41:25,450 --> 00:41:21,079 we need to have successful programs and 925 00:41:27,819 --> 00:41:25,460 we need to minimize our risks are 926 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:27,829 failures on the other hand we can't be 927 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:29,210 afraid to do something we've got to be 928 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:32,930 bold we've got to be aggressive so we 929 00:41:38,859 --> 00:41:36,410 can't let that shadow the way we do 930 00:41:40,750 --> 00:41:38,869 things so I would say those are to me 931 00:41:43,359 --> 00:41:40,760 the most significant challenges that we 932 00:41:46,450 --> 00:41:43,369 have in the future the other I guess the 933 00:41:47,829 --> 00:41:46,460 final point is with the advent of the 934 00:41:50,109 --> 00:41:47,839 thing I talked about for multiple 935 00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:50,119 programs large programs things we'd like 936 00:41:55,359 --> 00:41:52,250 to do in the future I think we need to 937 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:55,369 become even more productive than we are 938 00:42:01,140 --> 00:41:56,890 we have been in the 939 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:01,150 past and that's in all areas Andrey what 940 00:42:06,110 --> 00:42:02,890 do you see is the meet you I agree with 941 00:42:10,530 --> 00:42:06,120 aarón totally there's two two key areas 942 00:42:14,940 --> 00:42:10,540 one is developing confidence and 943 00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:14,950 maintaining confidence in our people you 944 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:16,510 know you have to have confidence in 945 00:42:22,500 --> 00:42:20,050 yourself you have to be able to know 946 00:42:25,260 --> 00:42:22,510 where you're coming from in order to 947 00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:25,270 direct and manage a program and that 948 00:42:29,820 --> 00:42:27,760 takes time to develop especially with 949 00:42:32,370 --> 00:42:29,830 the young people I would say five seven 950 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:32,380 eight years to develop that confidence 951 00:42:38,790 --> 00:42:35,770 in themselves and I think we've been 952 00:42:41,070 --> 00:42:38,800 blessed with that I also think that we 953 00:42:43,830 --> 00:42:41,080 have to continue to look at more 954 00:42:47,310 --> 00:42:43,840 efficient ways and better ways of doing 955 00:42:49,590 --> 00:42:47,320 business to eliminate duplication it is 956 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:49,600 not possible for us to continue doing 957 00:42:54,450 --> 00:42:52,330 business the way we are and support all 958 00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:54,460 of the programs that's on the plate and 959 00:42:59,070 --> 00:42:56,800 do all the things that we are to be 960 00:43:01,350 --> 00:42:59,080 doing you know we're just now to the 961 00:43:05,460 --> 00:43:01,360 point of where we can make space a fun 962 00:43:07,710 --> 00:43:05,470 place to work and play in and there's a 963 00:43:11,970 --> 00:43:07,720 lot more work out there that needs to be 964 00:43:14,070 --> 00:43:11,980 done and we can get around to so I see 965 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:14,080 that is the two major areas that we have 966 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:19,330 to work on Aaron what should young 967 00:43:25,110 --> 00:43:21,850 engineers or other professionals just 968 00:43:27,510 --> 00:43:25,120 starting out on their careers in NASA do 969 00:43:30,270 --> 00:43:27,520 to prepare themselves for positions in 970 00:43:31,950 --> 00:43:30,280 management well I think first and 971 00:43:33,900 --> 00:43:31,960 foremost whatever their field is as you 972 00:43:35,490 --> 00:43:33,910 pointed out whether it be in the 973 00:43:37,890 --> 00:43:35,500 business management area whether it be 974 00:43:39,930 --> 00:43:37,900 in the human resources area or whether 975 00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:39,940 it be in the technical engineering 976 00:43:44,130 --> 00:43:42,310 science area operations area I think you 977 00:43:46,110 --> 00:43:44,140 need a good formal background I think 978 00:43:49,380 --> 00:43:46,120 you cannot get away from a good formal 979 00:43:52,740 --> 00:43:49,390 background in education I think that's 980 00:43:55,740 --> 00:43:52,750 extremely important I think as we start 981 00:43:59,550 --> 00:43:55,750 off this discussion i do think trying to 982 00:44:03,750 --> 00:43:59,560 get some early hands-on experience in a 983 00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:03,760 total systems aspect of a program is 984 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:06,400 very beneficial and I think that ought 985 00:44:10,810 --> 00:44:07,970 to be in the hardware area if you 986 00:44:13,630 --> 00:44:10,820 and even in the analysis area if you can 987 00:44:15,609 --> 00:44:13,640 or some some type of hands-on experience 988 00:44:18,070 --> 00:44:15,619 whether it be in the engineering area of 989 00:44:19,810 --> 00:44:18,080 science area operations area or even in 990 00:44:21,250 --> 00:44:19,820 as i said the human resource or business 991 00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:21,260 management I think it's very important 992 00:44:24,910 --> 00:44:23,510 to get hands on and start it from the 993 00:44:27,190 --> 00:44:24,920 grounds of the ground up sound like 994 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:27,200 that's extremely important and I think 995 00:44:34,060 --> 00:44:29,530 the other attributes as I said before 996 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:34,070 the patient's the integrity honesty and 997 00:44:39,070 --> 00:44:36,290 being able to communicate are the really 998 00:44:43,450 --> 00:44:39,080 the attributes for a young person if he 999 00:44:46,170 --> 00:44:43,460 wants to to make it happen you might say 1000 00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:46,180 in a successful program management arena 1001 00:44:51,550 --> 00:44:49,760 and would you want to comment on I'm not 1002 00:44:54,460 --> 00:44:51,560 too sure i can add a whole lot toward 1003 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:54,470 hearing that came up with i usually can 1004 00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:56,810 always find something dead into 1005 00:45:04,420 --> 00:45:01,520 something but that's the that's the key 1006 00:45:07,089 --> 00:45:04,430 things that you have to develop 1007 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:07,099 confidence in yourself and one way a 1008 00:45:12,609 --> 00:45:09,290 person goes about doing that is being 1009 00:45:15,130 --> 00:45:12,619 able to take a project and do it so you 1010 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:15,140 get a feel for what it takes to do that 1011 00:45:19,270 --> 00:45:17,450 job and then you get a feel for what it 1012 00:45:22,900 --> 00:45:19,280 takes to do a little bit toward your job 1013 00:45:25,690 --> 00:45:22,910 and a little bit bigger job and I'm a 1014 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:25,700 firm believer on a person starting out 1015 00:45:29,620 --> 00:45:27,650 at the bottom and an organization and 1016 00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:29,630 learning the trade and working the way 1017 00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:32,450 up through the through the system and I 1018 00:45:35,770 --> 00:45:34,160 think it's those first years the 1019 00:45:38,230 --> 00:45:35,780 foundation that you get during those 1020 00:45:41,380 --> 00:45:38,240 first few years there's extremely 1021 00:45:43,810 --> 00:45:41,390 crucial to doing a good job having the 1022 00:45:45,010 --> 00:45:43,820 tools to do a good job down let me tell 1023 00:45:47,260 --> 00:45:45,020 you into this Joe you've been around a 1024 00:45:50,050 --> 00:45:47,270 long time but you seem you've seen it 1025 00:45:54,190 --> 00:45:50,060 all happened what's your take on it well 1026 00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:54,200 I think I'm a subscriber as you and 1027 00:45:59,530 --> 00:45:56,450 Henry are to the early hands-on 1028 00:46:03,700 --> 00:45:59,540 experience and I think there's a reason 1029 00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:03,710 for that in the sense that once you have 1030 00:46:09,220 --> 00:46:07,250 become expert in something yourself when 1031 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:09,230 you move into positions where you deal 1032 00:46:13,750 --> 00:46:10,970 with subjects that you're not so 1033 00:46:16,260 --> 00:46:13,760 knowledgeable about the content you have 1034 00:46:18,750 --> 00:46:16,270 learned how to recognize the 1035 00:46:22,230 --> 00:46:18,760 of an expert because it has 1036 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:22,240 characteristics or tool marks and it 1037 00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:24,970 helps you in evaluating the decisions 1038 00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:30,640 you have to make we've talked about our 1039 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:32,890 relationships with the contractor and 1040 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:34,810 within the various elements within the 1041 00:46:39,420 --> 00:46:37,330 center one of the things that it might 1042 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:39,430 be worthwhile to talk to Aaron about 1043 00:46:44,130 --> 00:46:41,530 program management as we're doing it in 1044 00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:44,140 the station is our relationships with 1045 00:46:48,090 --> 00:46:46,390 our headquarters and our sister setters 1046 00:46:50,820 --> 00:46:48,100 well I think that's a good point I'm 1047 00:46:52,830 --> 00:46:50,830 really glad you address that I think it 1048 00:46:55,070 --> 00:46:52,840 gets back to really what I said before 1049 00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:55,080 on item I said before is teamwork 1050 00:47:01,350 --> 00:46:58,210 there's no question that teamwork is 1051 00:47:03,180 --> 00:47:01,360 really is really the element i guess the 1052 00:47:05,790 --> 00:47:03,190 underlying element of all success I 1053 00:47:09,090 --> 00:47:05,800 think we've got to have teamwork with 1054 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:09,100 our with our centers but the centers 1055 00:47:14,610 --> 00:47:11,530 within NASA and we certainly have to 1056 00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:14,620 support the program directors and the 1057 00:47:18,750 --> 00:47:16,510 assoc administrators and headquarters 1058 00:47:20,610 --> 00:47:18,760 because they are really the people that 1059 00:47:22,530 --> 00:47:20,620 are setting the stage for the whole 1060 00:47:24,930 --> 00:47:22,540 program and I think we need to have 1061 00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:24,940 teamwork with them and for them and with 1062 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:26,020 the center's I think that's extremely 1063 00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:28,410 important and I think I've seen that 1064 00:47:32,730 --> 00:47:30,910 come a long way I think we have come a 1065 00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:32,740 long way in that regard I think we all 1066 00:47:38,430 --> 00:47:34,510 recognize that's going to be the element 1067 00:47:40,110 --> 00:47:38,440 of success both our man programs and our 1068 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:40,120 unmanned programs and I think we're 1069 00:47:44,130 --> 00:47:41,890 demonstrating that more and more every 1070 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:44,140 day with the leadership we have of the 1071 00:47:47,550 --> 00:47:46,450 center directors and the Sochi 1072 00:47:48,450 --> 00:47:47,560 administrators and with the 1073 00:47:50,660 --> 00:47:48,460 administrator and deputy administrator 1074 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:50,670 so I think it's extremely important 1075 00:47:55,350 --> 00:47:53,010 every how do you see the relationship 1076 00:48:04,030 --> 00:47:55,360 amongst the various directors of 1077 00:48:09,460 --> 00:48:06,770 III don't know quite how to answer that 1078 00:48:14,510 --> 00:48:09,470 because i don't know how it used to be 1079 00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:14,520 that good but i tend to agree with aarón 1080 00:48:23,810 --> 00:48:18,710 that the thing that we have to have is 1081 00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:23,820 honesty integrity teamwork you know 1082 00:48:29,540 --> 00:48:25,710 you've got to have those three and 1083 00:48:32,710 --> 00:48:29,550 you've got to have us sincere desire to 1084 00:48:36,290 --> 00:48:32,720 try to do what is right for the program 1085 00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:36,300 you know you can't let too many other 1086 00:48:45,290 --> 00:48:41,250 things creep in and as long as we can 1087 00:48:49,010 --> 00:48:45,300 keep our focus on trying to figure out 1088 00:48:51,740 --> 00:48:49,020 what is really the best thing to do and 1089 00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:51,750 get on and do it and make a decision you 1090 00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:53,040 know I think that's one of the most 1091 00:49:05,060 --> 00:49:01,370 Erin I think we've covered most of the 1092 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:05,070 points that come to my mind as to what 1093 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:06,810 one should address in program and 1094 00:49:13,940 --> 00:49:09,570 project management but perhaps you would 1095 00:49:19,130 --> 00:49:13,950 like to summarize what you think of as 1096 00:49:22,970 --> 00:49:19,140 the key tools that the manager has to 1097 00:49:26,750 --> 00:49:22,980 achieve his objectives well the one 1098 00:49:28,609 --> 00:49:26,760 thing that a manager doesn't like or two 1099 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:28,619 things a manager doesn't like one is a 1100 00:49:35,780 --> 00:49:32,970 surprise and the other as a failure and 1101 00:49:39,020 --> 00:49:35,790 that surprise could be in the budgetary 1102 00:49:40,790 --> 00:49:39,030 the schedule area are the performance 1103 00:49:42,170 --> 00:49:40,800 area and the same thing with the failure 1104 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:42,180 whether it be a test failure or whether 1105 00:49:48,740 --> 00:49:45,090 it be something more significant so I 1106 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:48,750 think the with those underlying issues 1107 00:49:56,270 --> 00:49:53,010 and those underlying stipulations I 1108 00:49:59,930 --> 00:49:56,280 think you have to have the intelligence 1109 00:50:04,099 --> 00:49:59,940 and the staying power you might say 1110 00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:04,109 which is what I would say is almost a 24 1111 00:50:10,910 --> 00:50:08,160 hour day 7 day a week job to keep on top 1112 00:50:12,740 --> 00:50:10,920 of those parameters so that you don't 1113 00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:12,750 get surprised you don't have a failure 1114 00:50:16,850 --> 00:50:14,640 and it's just by working the details 1115 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:16,860 have people that are willing to bring 1116 00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:19,410 you those that information and have 1117 00:50:24,070 --> 00:50:20,730 people that willing to help you make 1118 00:50:26,900 --> 00:50:24,080 those decisions whether it be your your 1119 00:50:29,210 --> 00:50:26,910 your own people or your contractors that 1120 00:50:31,670 --> 00:50:29,220 help you make those decisions so I think 1121 00:50:34,610 --> 00:50:31,680 if you can if you can set that type of 1122 00:50:36,890 --> 00:50:34,620 work if you can if you can put that type 1123 00:50:38,930 --> 00:50:36,900 of energy into it and you can get that 1124 00:50:40,370 --> 00:50:38,940 type of people around you not have yes 1125 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:40,380 people around you but have people that 1126 00:50:44,810 --> 00:50:42,330 will bring you the problems and bring 1127 00:50:46,370 --> 00:50:44,820 you the potential solutions I think 1128 00:50:51,110 --> 00:50:46,380 you've got a very very high probability 1129 00:50:54,430 --> 00:50:51,120 of avoiding the pitfalls of the type of 1130 00:50:58,210 --> 00:50:54,440 things that would cause you to to fail 1131 00:51:00,770 --> 00:50:58,220 Henry do you have any further coming 1132 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:00,780 program managers got to be tough as 1133 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:07,050 nails I mean you've got to you you've 1134 00:51:20,060 --> 00:51:14,490 got to not feel intimidated or not let 1135 00:51:23,030 --> 00:51:20,070 the system overwhelming there's lots of 1136 00:51:24,380 --> 00:51:23,040 decisions that are tough tough decisions 1137 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:24,390 decisions that's going to make 1138 00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:27,570 absolutely no one happy that has to be 1139 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:29,910 made and they have to be made a timely 1140 00:51:35,330 --> 00:51:32,370 fashion and it takes someone with a 1141 00:51:39,230 --> 00:51:35,340 great deal of fortitude to be able to 1142 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:39,240 make those decisions and make them in a 1143 00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:45,330 timely decisive kind of a way and I 1144 00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:47,130 think that's one of the most important 1145 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:49,200 ingredients that a project manager has 1146 00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:51,450 to have that tends to differentiate a 1147 00:51:58,220 --> 00:51:55,770 project manager from a director of 1148 00:52:00,680 --> 00:51:58,230 engineering or division chief for some 1149 00:52:03,110 --> 00:52:00,690 of those other kinds of jobs there's 1150 00:52:05,060 --> 00:52:03,120 lots of unpopular decisions that has to 1151 00:52:06,890 --> 00:52:05,070 be made and someone has to make it in 1152 00:52:09,530 --> 00:52:06,900 that decision generally falls on a 1153 00:52:15,350 --> 00:52:13,040 for our last observation Aaron I'd like 1154 00:52:20,390 --> 00:52:15,360 to address you to address the question 1155 00:52:23,870 --> 00:52:20,400 that says we're losing the generation 1156 00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:23,880 that has had this experience of mercury 1157 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:29,280 gemenese Skylab Apollo shuttle and some 1158 00:52:34,220 --> 00:52:31,410 people express a concern as to whether 1159 00:52:37,610 --> 00:52:34,230 we will have the management capability 1160 00:52:40,460 --> 00:52:37,620 and depth as we go into the future well 1161 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:40,470 I think we are losing we have lost a lot 1162 00:52:44,180 --> 00:52:42,690 of people that regard the time has 1163 00:52:45,110 --> 00:52:44,190 caught up with us in that regard or 1164 00:52:47,870 --> 00:52:45,120 times caught up with some of the people 1165 00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:47,880 on the other hand I really think from a 1166 00:52:55,270 --> 00:52:51,330 more positive point of view I think that 1167 00:52:58,340 --> 00:52:55,280 we do still have a lot of people around 1168 00:53:02,000 --> 00:52:58,350 good people around we do have education 1169 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:02,010 programs we do recognize I think the key 1170 00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:04,050 elements of good program management and 1171 00:53:07,580 --> 00:53:05,760 the key elements that are going to 1172 00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:07,590 require a person to have the tools to be 1173 00:53:11,330 --> 00:53:08,970 a good program manager or a good 1174 00:53:12,890 --> 00:53:11,340 engineer or a good scientist or business 1175 00:53:15,530 --> 00:53:12,900 management I think we recognize those 1176 00:53:17,750 --> 00:53:15,540 and I would say this I would say that 1177 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:17,760 the people that I see the young men and 1178 00:53:22,370 --> 00:53:19,170 women coming out of the universities 1179 00:53:23,690 --> 00:53:22,380 today I'm pretty high on them I look at 1180 00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:23,700 what some of the young people we've 1181 00:53:28,940 --> 00:53:24,930 hired and we're hiring quite a few as 1182 00:53:31,940 --> 00:53:28,950 I'm sure all centers are i think i have 1183 00:53:33,830 --> 00:53:31,950 no question in my mind i really have no 1184 00:53:37,010 --> 00:53:33,840 question in my mind that they will be 1185 00:53:39,530 --> 00:53:37,020 able to step up to the challenge of the 1186 00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:39,540 large new programs that i hope that that 1187 00:53:42,140 --> 00:53:40,770 we're working on that will come to pass 1188 00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:42,150 in the future which i think will come to 1189 00:53:45,020 --> 00:53:43,890 pass in the future and i just have no 1190 00:53:46,730 --> 00:53:45,030 question my mind that we're going to 1191 00:53:48,860 --> 00:53:46,740 have the right people we got the right 1192 00:53:51,350 --> 00:53:48,870 attitude we got the right leadership all 1193 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:51,360 the center's feel that way so I just I 1194 00:53:55,310 --> 00:53:53,010 feel that we keep going down the path 1195 00:53:57,500 --> 00:53:55,320 we're going with the emphasis we have 1196 00:54:00,110 --> 00:53:57,510 that will have the capability to do the 1197 00:54:01,790 --> 00:54:00,120 big programs in the future Henry would 1198 00:54:03,620 --> 00:54:01,800 you like to come in I didn't agree with 1199 00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:03,630 air and a hundred percent I think we 1200 00:54:10,370 --> 00:54:05,490 need to remember that we went to the 1201 00:54:12,980 --> 00:54:10,380 moon with a young team of people you 1202 00:54:16,610 --> 00:54:12,990 know we had a few experienced people and 1203 00:54:18,950 --> 00:54:16,620 a lot of kids out there and not a one of 1204 00:54:19,810 --> 00:54:18,960 them let us down the ones that we're 1205 00:54:23,470 --> 00:54:19,820 getting today 1206 00:54:26,170 --> 00:54:23,480 or the country's finest you know they're 1207 00:54:28,210 --> 00:54:26,180 much better educated than we were they 1208 00:54:31,420 --> 00:54:28,220 have a much better foundation start out 1209 00:54:34,260 --> 00:54:31,430 they work just as hard they have the 1210 00:54:37,810 --> 00:54:34,270 same kind of worth a death at we had and 1211 00:54:40,150 --> 00:54:37,820 I think when the time comes for them to 1212 00:54:42,940 --> 00:54:40,160 take over this responsibility they will 1213 00:54:46,060 --> 00:54:42,950 not let the country down I'm confident 1214 00:54:48,100 --> 00:54:46,070 of that I don't think you can give them 1215 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:48,110 too much responsibility to quick right 1216 00:54:58,540 --> 00:54:54,050 now Aaron Henry thank you very much and 1217 00:55:01,000 --> 00:54:58,550 this concludes this discussion of 1218 00:55:03,820 --> 00:55:01,010 program and project management in a 1219 00:55:07,430 --> 00:55:03,830 manned space flight program setting you